Expert Panel – Grass Roots Live Music Venue Ownership Models

Here is a intro to the discussion (not AI… typed by a human…)

The session focused on discussing the future of live music venue ownership in Australia, exploring alternative models and solutions to help grassroots venues survive. We discussed various operational approaches including charitable and not-for-profit structures, government funding opportunities, and changes in audience behaviour and revenue streams at contemporary music venues. The discussion covered specific examples of venue transformations, the potential for implementing ticket levies, and different models for supporting the independent music sector in Australia.

Future of Live Music Venues
The expert panel focused on the future of live music venue ownership in Australia, exploring alternative methods to help grassroots venues survive. Howard Adams (ALMBC Chair), introduced the panel and asked about the potential for Australia to follow the UK’s path of venue closures. Kris Stewart (QMusic) noted that recent venue closures on the Sunshine Coast demonstrate the issue’s presence in Australia, while Sam Whiting (RMIT) suggested smaller venues transitioning to a community interest company model as a potential solution, alongside policy interventions like the arena ticket levy and taxing streaming platforms.

Stadium Levy and Venue Sustainability
Sam discussed the implementation of a stadium and arena levy in the UK as an example of leveraging political pressure to redirect funding to grassroots activities, highlighting the importance of industry collaboration. Tyla Dombrosky (Crow Bar) shared that her Sydney venue relies heavily on alcohol sales (85%) and their Brisbane venue depends more on alcohol (98%), despite trying different models. Tyla emphasized the need for top-down support to help grassroots venues remain sustainable. Tyla noted significant differences between breweries and pubs in tax models as well as in state government treatment between New South Wales and Queensland, with New South Wales being more supportive of contemporary music venues, learned through hard lessons of the damage of previous lock-out laws. Opportunities such as cheaper state taxes make a huge difference – the Crow Bar pays 8.8% of the state licensing fees it pays in Queensland.

Brad Hinds (Oztix) discussed ticketing data trends including changing habits such as later arrivals, early leaving – people walking in to see the band they want to see and then leaving. Venues have had the same business model for 50 years, but that model is not working as well as having a detrimental impact on emerging artists. The same issue is impacting the vibe of festivals with audiences only engaging with acts that they know and love.]

Kris talked about the vibe created when young people gather and that they are getting to venues early when they are really excited about an act. The change in culture may also see people young and old wanting safer, more social environments not connected to late nights.

Live Event Audience Behaviour Changes
Tyla discussed how audience behaviour at live events has changed, with customers arriving later and often leaving immediately after the main act, impacting venue revenue and emerging artists. She noted that the traditional business model where venues rely heavily on bar sales during shows is no longer effective, as audiences are less willing to pay more for tickets or alcohol. Tyla talked about some venues taking a cut in income trying different options, but that having to do two shows in one day is difficult on the artists.

John Collins (The Fort / Qld Night-time Commissioner) also talked about changes in start and end times and the impact on the current models. Howard shared his experience at Laneway Festival, observing similar patterns where most attendees arrived late despite the full day event, while Jim Flanagan (Lazy Thinking) highlighted examples of younger audiences arriving early for social experiences before main events.

Music Venue Business Model Evolution
The group discussed challenges with the traditional music venue model, particularly regarding alcohol sales and programming for younger audiences. Jim shared data from his venue showing a significant shift, with soft drink sales outpacing alcohol sales 3-1 at recent events featuring young bands, and noted that about two-thirds of the audience at these shows didn’t purchase drinks at all. Something absolutely fundamental has shifted.

Kris highlighted how the reduction in alcohol sales has exposed the ‘for-purpose’ nature of grassroots music venues – alcohol may have been for profit, however live music has always been non-profit. Jim agreed that music is definitely ‘for purpose’ and we exist only to put on live music, just like a gallery or an opera exists to showcase art – and that is the definition of a charity form the ACNC. We are engaged in the process of putting on a creative pursuit. So we need more of a mixed model – which is far more common in Europe, for example. Tyla suggests that every venue will be different with their own demographic. Venues probably need Friday and Saturdays for bigger trade but different genres are important, even though they may not drink as much.

Music Venue Planning and Revenue
The discussion focused on how different music genres and demographics affect venue planning and revenue. John explained that they consider audience demographics and spending habits (spend per head) when staffing and budgeting for events, historically looking at the band, noting significant variations between genres like country music and TikTok/K-pop. Jim agreed that they plan using the same models, understanding that the bar take can be 4 or 5 times depending on the act. Tyla explained that this can also be difficult to plan for with some events bringing in much less income than anticipated.

Government Funding for Music Venues
The discussion focused on the relationship between government funding and music venues, with participants agreeing that while government support exists, the music industry needs to better engage with it and change its narrative around venues being cultural institutions rather than nightclubs.

Sam addressed the question about government support for contemporary music, arguing that venues should consider transitioning to not-for-profit structures to better align with cultural institutions and qualify for similar government support as arts organisations like Opera Australia, rather than acting like not-for-profits, whilst being a for-profit business. Sam said is would be difficult for government to support live music venues when they are still for-profit.

Kris emphasised the current model of viewing success – economic success. Whereas there are many ways of showcasing success and so many great artists that will never have overwhelming financial success.

John mentioned that the Queensland government is becoming more engaged as well as the importance of retaining young people in regions through cultural activities and the need for more cohesive advocacy from the sector. Music venues cannot be seen as a nuisance. Sam highlighted successful examples from Germany and the UK where the industry developed coherent advocacy strategies. John introduced his role as commissioner, only one and a half years in, following the great work of the NSW night-time economy workers.

Jim discussed the need for music venues to adopt a charity structure similar to opera and ballet to access longer-term funding opportunities and to be able to advocate to governments more effectively – culturally identical to opera, visual art, etc. There is a huge interest from government to help, but we need to help make it easy.

Sam gave a great example from Germany where all venues have come together to create their own localised ticket levy, topped up by government funding.

Ticket Levy for Music Industry
The group discussed implementing a ticket levy to support the music industry, with Brad emphasizing how simple and effective this approach has been in other countries. Kris mentioned the huge income going to international artists travelling overseas, rather than being returned to the Australian market with all the money going to the top of the pyramid. We need an approach that works for us, whatever that is. Brad also shared an example from a Brisbane venue that successfully added a $1 per ticket charge to Support Act, which promoters accepted without issue.

Sky Rixon (Elixir Music House Cairns), shared how difficult it is to operate an independent live music venue in a regional area, highlighting their role as the primary platform for emerging artists in the region and the challenges of classification as a live music venue under local government regulations. A major difficulty is being seen by a live music venue, by various levels of government.

Music Venue Operational Models Discussion
The discussion focused on different operational models for music venues in Australia. Sky explained that their current structure is a PTY under a restaurant model, primarily focused on food sales.

Jim shared his venue’s evolution from a small bar and record store to a music venue, highlighting their transition to a not-for-profit charitable model due to financial and licensing challenges. Now open seven nights a week as a not for profit. The numbers just never worked as a for-profit venue, even with multiple sold out shows each week. Lazy Thinking only survives through a combination of own takings, philanthropic donations and government funding. Jim emphasized that music venues can be classified as charitable activities, similar to opera or theatre companies, and discussed the benefits of accessing philanthropic and government funding. Both speakers noted the growing trend of new hybrid models in the independent music sector. What live music venues do can always be defined as a charity.

Australian Culture Fund
There is an emerging change of mindset in the philanthropic institutions who longer grew up listening to Vivaldi and instead grew up listening to The Saints and there is a new infrastructure of venues, labels and more that are picking up on this change.

Jim also spoke about the Australian Culture Fund (ACF) that is doing an excellent job. People often wont make donations without this tax deductibility.

Sky shared positive experiences using ACF to fundraise for their building purchase, allowing emerging projects access donations, with rigorous processes to ensure that funds are utilised appropriately through a grant process.

John defended the role of internationally owned venues like Fortitude Music Hall (Live Nation), arguing they bring talent, experience, and build new sites while employing Australians and working in partnership with Australian citizens and companies. The Fort competes alongside state owned venues to build a competitive market.

UK Live Music Levy System
The session wrapped up discussing on the UK’s voluntary levy system for live music, which was established to avoid government legislation. Sam explained how Live Trust was created as a foundation to collect and redistribute funds to the grassroots sector. He mentioned the French model as another example.

The panel then discussed how additional funds from a levy could be effectively used. Kris mentioned the difficulties of a national approach with some many different states and regions, but rather – looking at patterns across the challenges to deliver the best outcomes.

Brad suggesting variety in programming and community engagement to encourage people to get out and connect. Encouraging venues to provide some variety in what they are presenting – doing more than paying rent on a venue but only making money out of it for two days.

Kris reiterated important ideas previously mentioned – infrastructure investments for venues to pivot to non-live music activities, or venues underwriting payments for support acts, to ensure more supports are on the bill to provide diversity and longer events. Kris also talked about models where audiences members, bands, collectives all get on board to support major costs on things such as insurance.

Tyla mentioned the issue of the punk-rock ethic finding it difficult to ask support from audiences.

EGM Ant McKenna finalised the session with information about upcoming ALMBC events in Darwin and New South Wales.